lets talk about this swine flu vaccine?

[Darkcloud]

hey. i didn't notice a topic about this, but i think it's a very important issue, and you are very smart persons, so i'd like to discuss it.

a)where do you live? where do you get the majority of your information from? (i think this might help put our opinions into context.

1. do you personally know anyone who has been, or have you yourself been, sick with 'swine flu'?

2. did you take the vaccine? why did you choose to do so, or not? did you get your kids vaccinated? why/why not?

3. do you think this is a 'national/worldwide' emergency/pandemic, and why?

f) has your opinion swayed either way from what you originally thought?
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4. what do you think of 'allegations' of a conspiracy concerning governments inoculating citizens because of some ulterior motive. (population control; money)

5. what do you think about governments forcing mandatory vaccinations; permanent identification bracelets; forced quarantines; and fines/prison sentances . (i have heard that some states have passed these laws, though not yet put them into physical motion..has this happened in your state? (i've heard mentioned Oklahoma or Mass? can anyone confirm or deny this?)

6. what do you think of the fact that the 'Big guys' passed law that states that they cannot be held accountable (in monetary value) of any health issue or death that results directly from the vaccine? what about this in regards to the 1976 swine flu vaccine that killed or injured many many people.

7. do you think it's suspicious, or a thankful coincidence, that Baxter, the pharma that manufactures the vaccine, patented the swine flu vaccine in 2007(?- along with other vaccines as well), but the first cases were not reported until 2009.?


please share any and all of your thoughts and questions
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[lozenge]

there is a thread (recent and still somewhat active) here. :)
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[knittykat]

Okay I'll bite.

a) Chicago area. (what information? medical information? I try to read a broad variety of sources and form my own opinions).

1) Yes.

2) No. I was *just* able to secure an appointment (3 weeks from now) for my daughter to get one. She's in a "priority group" while I am not. And the vaccine is very limited here.

3) I think it qualifies as a pandemic, but the definition of "pandemic" is likely different from what most people immediately think. Do I think that people will be walking the streets yelling "bring out your dead!"? No. Do I think it's a serious threat that has the potential to harm a lot of people? Yes.

f) Yes. I was originally basing my opinion on an article my chiropractor gave me by Joseph Mercola. I read an article on Science Based Medicine directly refuting Mercola's article, did more research, and decided Mercola was full of it.

4) I think the "allegations" are paranoid. there would be far more effective methods of population control than by vaccinating people against an infectious disease.

5) I don't agree with mandatory vaccinations for the general populace, unless people are closely involved in an environment where they have the potential to pass the disease onto many other people. So, mandatory vaccinations for children in school, health care workers, etc. is acceptable to me. I would LOVE to see a link of someone getting imprisoned for refusing a vaccine. Can you provide me with one?

6) I don't know who the Big Guys are. You'll have to help me out there.

7) I'm gonna need a link here too. As far as I understood it, this is a new strain of swine flu, so a previous vaccine patent would have been on a previous strain, so it's unrelated.
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[WorkAndPlay]

Darkcloud, I may be misinterpreting your use of italicization and quote marks, but your questions seem so leading to me. I think some of the questions presume certain claims to be true, or at the very least reasonable, without providing any background information or links to further information. As is, I can't really give an opinion on it.
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[bookselves]

I'm in Ontario, Canada and I do personally know lots of people who have it/had it.
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[pointandclick]

I agree with WorkandPlay that some of these questions seem rather leading.

Buuuuuuuut, I'll answer anyway.

[Gigi]

These questions definitely seem leading to me as well, but I want to answer this one:

[Aliceinwonderland]

a)where do you live? where do you get the majority of your information from? (i think this might help put our opinions into context. I live in a detroit ex- urb. The majority of my info re: vaccines from my virologist SIL. She works in academic, not corporate settings, so I consider her neutral. When the H1N1 first hit the gov't pulled her out of her research to do some emergency research on it. She's got a LOT more backround on this than anyone I know and also has my own interest at heart so I trust her opinion.

1. do you personally know anyone who has been, or have you yourself been, sick with 'swine flu'? No and No. I think I may have had it this summer while on a business trip (I was floored...it sucked.) but I'm not sure.

2. did you take the vaccine? why did you choose to do so, or not? did you get your kids vaccinated? why/why not? No, but I want it. I just haven't been able to get my greedy little vaccine loving hands on it yet.

3. do you think this is a 'national/worldwide' emergency/pandemic, and why? Yes and no. I believe it has the potential to really really really hurt less medically...supplied...countries. If the h1n1 hits, say..Burundi, where medical care for something like the states has is not just expensive it is pretty much impossible to get, we could have a problem on our hands. At least it would be a problem to me. I'm not so sure if the general population of the USA really cares about such a place as Burundi. The USA, while people will die/have died from this has reserves of tamiflu, Emergency rooms that will take people even if they can't pay, and other facilities to minimize deaths from this.

f) has your opinion swayed either way from what you originally thought? I was of no opinion, and now I have an opinion.
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4. what do you think of 'allegations' of a conspiracy concerning governments inoculating citizens because of some ulterior motive. (population control; money) No. That's silly. People make money off of stuff, that's the nature of caplitalism and the free market, but I don't think people are doing it to do anything like that.

5. what do you think about governments forcing mandatory vaccinations; permanent identification bracelets; forced quarantines; and fines/prison sentances . (i have heard that some states have passed these laws, though not yet put them into physical motion..has this happened in your state? (i've heard mentioned Oklahoma or Mass? can anyone confirm or deny this?) I defer to what gigi says on this...

6. what do you think of the fact that the 'Big guys' passed law that states that they cannot be held accountable (in monetary value) of any health issue or death that results directly from the vaccine? what about this in regards to the 1976 swine flu vaccine that killed or injured many many people.
Who are the big guys? I'll let you know when this question is flushed out more fully.

7. do you think it's suspicious, or a thankful coincidence, that Baxter, the pharma that manufactures the vaccine, patented the swine flu vaccine in 2007(?- along with other vaccines as well), but the first cases were not reported until 2009.? I think this question is um... I don't know how to put it, maybe not all there? Do you have a source? but I'll tell you what I know: the h1n1 has been around for a long time, the "swine flu" has been around for a long time, just in different ways. I would like to be pointed to a source that fully explains exactly what part of the vaccine was patented in 2007 because this isn't stacking up with what I know. They can patent the vaccine "form" and then pick and chose the strain as they see fit. My SIL goes to the lab with colds, swabs her nose, and grows it just for fun, vaccine form. It's essentially that easy to make the strain. (well...not really...there's more you have to do to it, but making a vaccine strain for a flu is not the be all end all of advancing science!) So, while they may have patented part of the vaccine "carrier" the strain is whatever they want to put in it. I think people overthink vaccines. Lets think about getting stuff into neurons, printing skin for grafts, and creating microchips that sit on the brain and move robotic arms based in impulses. Vaccines are incredible, wonderful technology, but why are we afraid of something so scientifically simple? We've had vaccines around since the 1700s!
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[Crumb]

Standard disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. Nobody take anything I say as any kind of legal advice.

[Darkcloud]

okay, yes my questions may seem 'leading' as you mentioned. i don't mean to try to lead anyone into thinking a certain way, the post is simply a manifestation of my concerns and questions. the post was made in a semi hurry, and i didn't have time to fine tune every word. (hmm, frankly, i think i kind of got jumped on here, and maybe even in a way got called stupid a couple times?)
i am not from america, and i have been hearing, and learning, a lot of scary things lately, be they true or not, some of which i'm simply asking for clarification on, or for an 'inside' opinion. i purposely did not include links because i wanted your opinions before further explaining myself (also i was pressed for time).

so, here are my thoughts. added links or sources may not be always the best, just the best ones found first. keep in mind, i'm not trying to be especially specific, just getting an idea/feeling out there.

does the american government (really all the greaterpower governments) scare me? yes, of course, they sometimes do horrible things.
would i take what the governments, food and drug and health administrations, or pharma companies say at face value? no, because they are sometimes involved in inhuman acts ( Bayer sells aids tainted blood products) gov't spraying cities with pesticides)
so, would i put something like a larger 'conspiracy' concerning a vaccine past them? well, no, not really. (considering baxter's history, and that it seems most major gov'ts are hand in hand, and the pharma comps above them even. rumsfeld + tamiflu)

so, after all that being said (maybe a little digression/explaination/defense) i'll answer the questions:

a) i live on the west side of canada. i get most of my information from you tube.

1) no, and no. just second hand information, and sometimes i see people wearing masks.

2)no i did not, and i would not because i have never been vaccinated before, because i practice natural and alternative medicine, and have not yet had any first hand experiences that make me feel like the shot is needed in my situation.

3)i'm not sure. (that's why i asked!) yes (as knittykat mentioned) i think the word 'pandemic' confuses some people, it's maybe a little harsh, or just misunderstood.

f) yes, kind of. before i didn't have too much opinion, other than a vague unsure feeling, didn't think my pregnant friends should get vaccinated without thoroughly researching first for example...but the last few days i've come across some videos that kind of made me go "hmm. that's strange'
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4. i am not sure. it could definately be possible, but at present i don't entirely believe it.

but there is this video which interested me, and some other interviews of the same woman, who is "dr. rauni-leena luukanen kilde, a retired finnish chief medical officer of lapland, with three medical specialities. was acting director of the environmental health and health education of finland, and in that capacity replaced chief medical officer of finland shortly at the national board of health in finland. represented government of finland at WHO in tropical medicine and is former member of the new york academy of sciences (who is someone i'd consider a credible lady)

5. I absolutely 100% believe that we, as free creatures of the earth, have the choice to say what goes with our bodies and our freedom. i do not believe in mandatory vaccines, and it worries me greatly that this seems like a future possibility. i live in canada, which is a fairly liberal country (of the people, anyway) and i really don't see something like going on without a fight. however, i do see the danger of an infected person walking around in an close environment. some people predict quarantines of people who refuse vaccines "no king but jesus? eh" but others explain only sick people would be quarantined. IF it came down to road blocks or something like it, how would authorities know that you would not become sick and spread the virus unless they inoculated you on the spot? what if/how could you refuse?

6! (hai guyz! wanna write a novel?)
here's an article about their immunity

and a cbc documentary about the '76 swine flu.

7. yeah, this question wasn't all there, because i myself didn't really understand the hubbub about the fact. thanks alice for the semi-science explanation.

AND thanks you for your responses, your patience, and your snark.
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_________________
know thyself, and you shall know the Universe and God (...and i know because of KRS-1)

[WorkAndPlay]

Hey. Thanks for clarifying.

I don't have time to respond to all of your questions, but I jumped at this:

[knittykat]

Okay, I'm not calling you stupid, just poorly informed, Darkcloud. You really get most of your information from YouTube? I could put up a video about my deep lifelong research on h1n1, doesn't make it reliable. I think perhaps your sources are questionable, and it would be helpful for you on this issue and in the long run to broaden your scope of sources.
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"Fun is where you find it." --jackierocket

[scarymonster]

a)where do you live? where do you get the majority of your information from?
Pennsylvania, formerly Florida when this began earlier this year. I don't have a lot of info on this, I don't have time to read up on it very much.

1. do you personally know anyone who has been, or have you yourself been, sick with 'swine flu'? I have not, I know several co-workers who have family sick with it. A 5 year old girl in a nearby town just died from it.

2. did you take the vaccine? why did you choose to do so, or not? did you get your kids vaccinated? why/why not? I did not. I don't have time, money, I have no idea where I'd go to get it, or if my area has any available. I would get it if it were readily available to me.

3. do you think this is a 'national/worldwide' emergency/pandemic, and why?
Facts are facts, this isn't an opinion question. There are numbers, they dictate the defintion.

f) has your opinion swayed either way from what you originally thought? I've always been a supporter of vaccines, I'm not terribly concerned about contracting swine flu, but I think if there is a way to control a quickly spreading and dangerous disease such as this, then by all means it should be.
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4. what do you think of 'allegations' of a conspiracy concerning governments inoculating citizens because of some ulterior motive. (population control; money)
I've only heard one person suggest that swine flu is a population control conspiracy, and he is not a person that I would trust to make me a sandwich, much less give medical advice. There are many things the government and large corporations do that I will never know about. They make decisions based on their own motives, and I will never have anything to do with them. Much like I don't choose to ponder if there is life on other planets, I don't choose to ponder if the government created swine flu to kill us all off-- it simply isn't something I will ever be able to know or change, and I am inclined to trust folks that have more information than I do.

5. what do you think about governments forcing mandatory vaccinations; permanent identification bracelets; forced quarantines; and fines/prison sentances . (i have heard that some states have passed these laws, though not yet put them into physical motion..has this happened in your state?
I doubt it will get to this point. However, this epidemic combined with the recent trend in choosing not to vaccinate concerns me. If it gets to the point that enough people are dying, and people still think that they shouldn't vaccinate themselves, then I support any efforts to keep our general population safe from a very real and very controllable risk. Sometimes a parent has to intervene in their child's dangerous behavior because they can clearly see that the end result will harm them. A situation like this is just as clear-cut to me-- if people are dying rapidly, a glass of orange juice and a flinstones daily vitamin is not going to help.

6. what do you think of the fact that the 'Big guys' passed law that states that they cannot be held accountable (in monetary value) of any health issue or death that results directly from the vaccine? what about this in regards to the 1976 swine flu vaccine that killed or injured many many people. I don't know anything about this, but as far as numbers are concerned, there are lots of people being hurt and injured by swine flu as it is. I believe there is a much smaller risk of complications from the vaccine than the risk of complications from h1n1. But I really don't know anything to back that up.

7. do you think it's suspicious, or a thankful coincidence, that Baxter, the pharma that manufactures the vaccine, patented the swine flu vaccine in 2007(?- along with other vaccines as well), but the first cases were not reported until 2009.? Thank you to Aliceinwonderland, I agree with her. I am thankful that there are educated scientists that are able to study disease and make educated predictions about the way they will affect a population of people. It's work that I could never do!


A lot of these questions seem to be leaning towards a general distrust of government, science, pharma, medical establishments. While I think it is healthy to question and study the motives of people who "make the rules" for the world, as far as conspiracy goes, I simply don't believe that THAT volume of people could keep such a good secret. I really am not inclined to be so suspicious of Big Guys. I think they have their own motives, and I disagree with choices that they make, but I don't think that they are seeking to harm folks; I truly don't believe that a global conspiracy/plot/malicious plan is possible because in the end, they are humans too, and humans just aren't that good at keeping secrets.
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[Gigi]

[whywhy]

One thing that I wonder about sometimes is arguing against vaccines because they make money. Surely making money from a vaccine does not mean that it is ineffective? I would imagine that having an effective product would make you more money in the long term (and be better PR), would it not?
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